Electric or not?
 

Ok this has been on my mind for some time and in all honesty is quite interesting. With the advent of actual electric cars made by car companies such as Tesla motors http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1 or Miles http://www.milesautomotive.com/showroom_xs200.php that aren't damaged by the big bad car company (whose names I won't mention) I was wondering how many people would either buy these cars or do a conversion on their beloved bimmer.

My original decision before I realized Miles was making an affordable car, although less sexy than the Tesla, was to buy a second e30 regardless of whether or not it's engine ran and do my own conversion. Here's an example done on a Honda http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm.
And perhaps if I had extra money install a CVT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continu..._and_drawbacks
The electric engine + the CVT would result in an unbelievably smooth and silent ride which I doubt many enthusiasts like but hey that's just me. I think silent and sporty is sexy... kinda like a ninja.

Anyway I'd like to know how many of you would either buy a manufactured electric car, convert your own car, or simply say global warming is bullshit and our dependency on foreign oil is a good thing. (ok that last thing might be a little to political not like I wasn't gonna keep an ICE car)

Various research links so far... (Please don't assume anything you heard by word of mouth)
EV's -
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
http://www.milesautomotive.com/showroom_xs200.php

Info on conversions and other companies related to EV's -
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm.
http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery...icle#Batteries

Info on EV's such as power, range, environmental impact -
http://www.ei2025.org/previous_editorial.asp?e=103
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main.htm
http://www.speedace.info/statistics.htm
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV/cost.php

What's up with this house??
http://app.usmma.edu/h2home.htm

If you have any research links you want added either PM me or just post that you want it added

I have to think this one over :type

For a quick reference...
Tesla Motors - 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, 135 mpg equivalent, 250+ mile range.
Price - roughly $90k (they have allot of sweet stuff in it)

Miles Automotive - To be released in 2008, 150+ mile range, specs n/a
Price - $30k

Your own conversion - (not including any tools) anywhere from $5k to $30k depending on what you do. Also keep in mind you can sell the parts you remove from the car. Plus this can be an awesome project to show off to all your friends.

Have someone else do the conversion - Ummm look it up yourself because it's not available in most areas but people do offer it.
EDIT - check out the link in my next post it has a few listed....

The problem that I have seen with currently available technology that you and I can buy is that it either won't get out of its own way or it has an ultra short range because of the performance.

Most of that handicap is the two tons of batteries that are the only thing available with out a tame venture capitalist paying the bills.

Someday...................

Here's a random link that has some good info. http://www.eaaev.org/eaaevsforsale.html

Also good old wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery...icle#Batteries

If you haven't seen Who Killed the Electric Car http://www.ei2025.org/previous_editorial.asp?e=103

Hopefully those of you who find this interesting will google up some information yourself because I can't possibly post links to everything...

I think 0-60 in 3.6 secs is pretty fast plus that comes with a 250 mile range. The Ferrari F430 ($175,000 almost twice as much) goes 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. In all honesty I only get about 220-280 mile range in my 325i e30 (280 being riding on empty). Plus this debate is not saying you will replace all your cars with electric but maybe 1 or 2 for around town. The first link I sent has even more companies that make electric cars which doesn't even include all of them.

Also I'd like to add the Honda conversion example I linked earlier was not done by a mechanic. He left the majority of the old gas components on his car which is why in the end his car weighed so much. Naturally lighter weight = greater range and performance.

Thirdly there are batteries out there that can generate enough power to drive a decent distance with good performance thing is right now they're a little expensive. Don't always believe what rumors you hear without doing a little bit of research. And always keep in mind that a car with a 120 mile range can handle your 15 mile commute each day and still be fun to drive. Everyone now of days is used to plugging in their cell phone or laptop when they go to bed, why not their car??

My problem is that I won't drive a 25 mph car in 45/65 mph traffic.

I won't drive anything that can be out accelerated by a bicycle.

And I won't pay $90,000 or even $40,000 for any car new or used.

I suppose that as a point of pride I won't drive anything that looks like the dog drug it home either.

I did a fair bit of research before-as far as finding usable motor and control combinations and consider what I would put a system in.

My calculations got to putting more than half the price of a decent relatively efficient new car into an older body with only moderate range and performance.

If you want to research something, try the energy cost of generating the electricity to charge up one of these moderate efficiency cars. Not talking $$s here

Don't forget to include the energy cost of mining and transporting the coal or natural gas to generate the electricity. And don't forget the transmission losses down the lines and thru the substations and transformers.

I'll bet that the "carbon" costs are pretty close to ethanol or even some of the refined fuels.

Even with the losses through transmitting power down lines (which you could just put up a few solar panels like the charging stations out in CA. Before the state got sued by the big car companies for instuting a zero emission law that required like 1% of their cars to be zero emission to sell their cars there) check this site out to see how much more inefficient your car is. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Even with coal power your car is still vastly more inefficient. Modern cars with CVT's pistons that shut down and all this other extremely complicated equipment are needed just to make it slightly more efficient at which point you the consumer lose in the end from maintenance.

Most people are willing to point fingers and not research the possibilities. if nothing else rent "who killed the electric car" and that is a documentary based off old technology which addresses everything you just said. Also read this http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main.htm?

Also your comment about 25 mph car back in 1899 electric cars went 57.6 mph!! Here are a few models that hold records http://www.speedace.info/statistics.htm.

Here is a calculator that will show you the cost of charging up an EV http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV/cost.php

I do have to concede to your statement about $40,000 Terry. Although they are getting cheaper pretty fast as various companies are finishing the development stage (2008 will be an awesome year) it's still a little steep. The majority of it is an upfront cost though and in the long run an EV costs about the same as a normal car. However this is where your opinion of quiet cars vs the roar of the engine and your environmental concerns kick in. In a way the poll is hypothetically if there was a cheap EV would you buy it?

My 25 mph reference comes from your Miles auto link- that is what their current production does for speed. The rest are still Vaporware.

The Tesla and the others in development are sadly still Vaporware too. AND they will end up being Conversation pieces for the rich and famous anyway. I won't be able to afford one.

So far it is really hard (read impossible) to get anywhere near real world performance in either range or traffic matching performance with anywhere near real world prices.

BTW I live in the Pacific Northwet and if I got more than 4 months of the year with reliable solar power I would be thrilled and my house would be charged up too.

Ouch 4 months of sun. Well like I said in the last post theoretically would you invest in an electric car if it was up to standards?
Also look at Mile's veiled car that's coming out soon. Their other cars are around town cars that's just how they got started.
As far as the Tesla being Vaporware it's already in production and has been since 2006. So how can it be vaporware if it is in production and requires reservations to get a new one because people love it so much???

Oh feel free to post links to any research you have. I'll edit them into the top post with the other research so people can browse quickly without having to read the whole thread.

If it were economically practical over the planned span of my ownership - Yes I would buy an electric car.

If it fails to make economic sense for me then -No I wouldn't buy one.

The same with Hydrogen or E85- it has to make economic sense for ME in my circumstances. I am obviously not a Faddist when it comes to my cars.

I can't save the Earth from my place on it and I can't influence trends enough to make much difference from here either. So I will do what I can towards conservation of Mothers resources without giving up my life to do so. Caves are damp and cold and drafty! Dark too!

My feeling so far is yes at this exact moment in time it's probably not worth it. But if you never get excited research something then you'll never have any hope. As you can see I'm probably one of the few in my generation that consider this and have done research on it. I admit driving my 6 cylinder BMW and hearing the roar of the engine makes me happy. I mean who doesn't? This is the Bimmer forum.
Think about it even if you believe that you doing something won't make a difference in the world you would be incorrect. It would either cause people to join with you and help or band together to disprove you. Either way it causes something to happen.

Oh here's something neat for all you tech freaks out there it's something from the college I'm going to.
http://app.usmma.edu/h2home.htm

I have done most of my Doing already-I'm in my 60's now and I'll leave that "Doing"for you kids for a while. I may have to come back and try straightening you all out but until then.............

I have been researching alternative fuels and technology since it first interested me in the 50's while I was in school.

Except for the more complex control systems that add maybe 10 to 15% in range and controllability the current technology isn't all that far advanced from the 1970s electric golf and shop carts.

They ran cars on alcohol during WW2. Some even ran on woodsmoke!

When something comes along that satisfies my needs and at 6' 3" 235 it will be larger than the shoeboxes that they will sell at first, I'll consider buying it.

Until then I will keep track of what they are doing and what they can bring to market.

I'll keep driving other peoples castoffs and not waste the energy required to build a new car just for me so I can save a little energy and feel really good about it! (Prius owners can apply here for that credit)

So now I am going to climb down from my soapbox - have a nice day!